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This was the turning point of history, the time where the nations of the world saw how to do it.

If not for this incredibly evil man, totally misrepresented by a fairy tale history, we would not have had the atrocities we've seen over the last 150 years.

After all, Napoleon had no death camps, no gulags, and did not wage war on innocent civilians....to men of his time it was unthinkable to do so.

Not anymore.

And before someone says something stupid and ridiculous, keep in mind, this bastard never freed 1 single slave, not 1. That was if my memory serves Rutherford B. Hayes though he gets no credit for it.

No this man EXTINGUISHED THE FLAME OF LIBERTY, he put out the shining light on the hill that had given hope to the world.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo197.html

Quote:The Most Cynical and Hypocritical Speech Ever Delivered

by Thomas J. DiLorenzo


Over the Thanksgiving holiday (decreed by Lincoln in 1863) one neocon Tabloid, National Review, reprinted Lincoln’s October 3, 1863 proclamation, highlighting Abe’s cynical reference to "the Most High God . . ." Another neocon Tabloid, The American Spectator, published the typical sappy, a-historical, fact-free, rhetorical mumbo jumbo about "Father Abraham" that Harry Jaffa and his fellow Lincoln cultists are known for.

The references to God in Lincoln’s Thanksgiving proclamation, like all other such references in his political speeches, are breathtakingly cynical because of the fact that Lincoln never became a Christian (according to his wife and his closest friend and law partner, William Herndon); he never joined a church; rarely ever stepped foot into one; as a young man wrote an entire book that disputed Scripture; and was famous for his vulgar stories and language. But he studied the Bible as a political tool, just as today’s politicians study opinion polls.

Prior to 1863 Lincoln’s references to God and the Bible in his political speeches were mostly catch phrases and buzz words ("a house divided cannot stand"). But as more and more fellow American citizens were murdered by the thousands by his army, and as the war crimes mounted, Abe stepped up his Biblical lingo. By the time of his second inaugural he wrote a speech in which he absolved himself of all blame for the war ("the war [just] came," he said), blaming the whole bloody mess on God. Presuming to know what was in the mind of God, he theorized that the Lord was punishing all Americans, North and South, for the sin of slavery. He did not theorize on why God would not also punish the British, French, Spanish, and others who were responsible for bringing 95% of all the slaves to the Western Hemisphere. In other words, his Biblical language was always a diversion and a cover-up for the war crimes against American civilians (among other atrocities) that he was micromanaging.

The first sentence of Lincoln’s Thanksgiving proclamation is a real howler. The year 1863, he said, "has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies." What? Healthful skies?! As of the fall of 1863 there had been several hundred thousand battlefield casualties, including thousands of men in both armies who died of yellow fever and other dreaded diseases. There were more than 50,000 casualties in the Battle of Gettysburg alone, just three months earlier.

In the second sentence, Lincoln the non-Christian claimed that "we" are "prone to forget" that all of those "healthful skies" come from "the ever watchful providence of Almighty God." Speak for yourself, Abe!

This is followed by another howler, claiming that "peace has been preserved with all nations." He apparently forgot about the Confederate States of America that he was waging total war against.

It gets worse (and funnier). The next thing he says is that "order has been maintained." Stalin said the same thing about the Soviet Union. By that time Lincoln had imprisoned thousands of Northern political dissenters without due process since he illegally suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus. He had shut down hundreds of "unorderly" opposition newspapers, and deported poor old Congressman Clement Vallandigham of Dayton, Ohio, his most outspoken critic in Congress.

As Dean Sprague wrote in Freedom Under Lincoln (p. 299), under Lincoln’s "policy of oppression," the "entire judicial system was set aside" as "the laws were silent, indictments were not found, testimony was not taken, judges did not sit, juries were not impaneled, convictions were not obtained and sentences were not pronounced. The Anglo-Saxon concept of due process, perhaps the greatest political triumph of the ages and the best guardian of freedom, was abandoned."

Three months earlier there had been draft riots in New York City that one could hardly describe as "orderly." An eye witness to the riots was Colonel Arthur Fremantle of the British Army, who wrote the following about the New York City draft riots in his book, Three Months in the Southern States (p. 302):

The reports of outrages, hangings, and murder, were now most alarming, the terror and anxiety were universal. All shops were shut; all carriages and omnibuses had ceased running. No colored man or woman was visible or safe in the streets or even in his own dwelling. Telegraphs were cut, and railroad tracks torn up.

Lincolnian "order" was restored when Abe sent 15,000 troops to New York from the just-concluded Battle of Gettysburg. The troops fired indiscriminately into the draft protesters, killing hundreds, more likely thousands, of them according to Iver Bernstein, author of The New York City Draft Riots. (This scene was portrayed in the movie Gangs of New York, where Bernstein worked as an historical consultant to director Martin Scorcese).

But let’s not let historical facts get in our way. Let’s follow the neocon lead and swoon and weep and get chills up our legs over Abe’s Big Lie that "harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict."

The notion that there was "harmony" and "unity" in the Northern states during the war is one of the most outrageous lies in American history. Historian Ella Lonn described how Lincoln created "harmony" within the U.S. Army in the face of massive desertions by literally hundreds of thousands of Northern men in her book, Desertion During the Civil War. Draftees "were held like veritable prisoners" and Lincoln’s government "had no compunctions about shooting or hanging deserters," wrote Lonn. The murder of deserters achieved Nazi-like efficiency: "A gallows and shooting ground were provided in each corps and scarcely a Friday passed during the winter of 1863–64 that some wretched deserter did not suffer the death penalty in the Army of the Potomac. . . . The death penalty was so unsparingly used that executions were almost daily occurrences. . ." The "method of execution" was "generally shooting but hanging seems to have been used occasionally."

The Thanksgiving speech gets even worse. The very next uttering of Abe’s is that "the laws have been respected and obeyed." Well, not by Abraham Lincoln, certainly. Even his own attorney general, Robert Bates, stated that his suspension of Habeas Corpus was illegal and unconstitutional, as was the suppression of free speech throughout the North. West Virginia was illegally carved out of Virginia to form a new slave state as part of the union. And where in the Constitution is the president permitted to order soldiers to imprison and deport an opposition member of Congress without any due process? Or rig national elections and imprison duly-elected members of the Maryland state assembly without due process? Doesn’t the Constitution require presidents to see to it that the states have republican forms of government?

Indeed, Lincoln’s invasion of the Southern states was the very definition of treason under the U.S. Constitution. Article 3, Section 3 proclaims that: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort" (emphasis added). Treason under the U.S. Constitution consists "only" in waging war against "them," namely, the free, independent and sovereign states, plural. Lincoln redefined treason to mean any criticism by anyone of him or his administration. In fact, he even said that a man who stands by and says nothing while the war was being discussed was guilty of "treason."

Lincoln also violated international law and his own military code by intentionally waging war on American civilians for four years, killing more than 50,000 of them according to historian Jeffrey Rogers Hummel. Even pro-Sherman biographer Lee Kennett wrote in his book, Marching Through Georgia (p. 286), that "had the Confederates somehow won, had their victory put them in position to bring their chief opponents before some sort of tribunal, they would have found themselves justified (as victors generally do) in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against noncombatants."

All the "great things" that had happened since he became president, said Abe, were "the gracious gifts of the Most High God . . ." Therefore, he said, "we" should celebrate as "the whole American People" to give thanks to God with a national holiday. This was another very large contradiction: Lincoln never admitted that secession was legal, therefore, he always considered Southerners to be a part of "the whole American people" for political purposes. It is doubtful that a single Southerner, in 1863, would have heeded Abe’s advice and given thanks for all that he had done for them.

Lincoln concluded his Thanksgiving propaganda speech with more religious lingo, thanking the Lord for "the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility," and, get this – Union. The Union – always spelled with a capital "U" – was not just a practical political arrangement created by the founding generation mostly for foreign policy purposes, as Thomas Jefferson said it was. It was supposedly divine, the work of God. Lincoln the non-Christian knew this for sure. It’s what created The Divine Right of Lincoln, similar to The Divine Right of Kings during the Middle Ages.

This deification of the state echoed the words of the fanatical New England Unitarian preacher Henry W. Bellows, who worked in the Lincoln administration as its Sanitary Commissioner and whose son, Russell, was Robert Todd Lincoln’s Harvard classmate and best friend. (Lincoln’s son Robert spent the war years "fighting" for good grades at Harvard). Bellows authored a creepy, totalitarian-sounding book in 1863 entitled Unconditional Loyalty which declared that "the state is indeed divine, as being the great incarnation of a nation’s rights, privileges, honor and life" itself." Moreover, "the first and most sacred duty of loyal citizens" was "to rally round the president – without question or dispute."

In his new book, The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and Slavery (p. 265), Lincoln cultist Eric Foner informs us that "it is not surprising that Lincoln seemed to share this outlook." This "outlook" would have caused George Washington to reach for his sword and lead another Revolution against another despotic and dictatorial regime.
Well Pennywise Barry Obumer Whip without a doubt set in motion and succeeded with the consolidation of fed power over the states. Probably a political genius using the slavery issue as a tool and using fiat based greenbacks to finance the beginnings of empire building. Nonetheless a disgusting example of the most damaging politician in US history, and IMO would not even consider this fuck deserving of the slightest bit of human consideration.
Morbius, you’ll have your 15 minutes, and more if necessary. But, before we start, there are a few questions.

I’m a little confused about this “shining light on a hill that had given hope to the world” bit. And your selection of this particular time period as being a turning point in history. The turning point may have been the initial colonization of North America. You said in Keith’s We won’t Fly! thread that “The turning point in history is AFTER every example you listed so we'd be just fine through those wouldn't we.” Those examples were: 1798-1800 Franco-American War, 1801-1805, 1815 Barbary Wars, 1812-1815 with Great Britain to name a few. Would Texas still have had its War of Independence in 1836? Would there have been a Mexican American War?

Humans are quite imitative in their behavior. The people introduced to this continent learned very early from their overlords, the British, how to take whatever they wanted. What made the British along with the French and Spanish (and then us as we colonized this land) think it was appropriate to steal these lands from the indigenous peoples? Yet from the beginning, we pushed these peoples aside as we began our quest for freedom and liberty. Much of that occurred during the time period you denoted as being “just fine”.

You seem to have a real problem with the Civil War and the aftermath of its creating a Union from the vanquished confederate states. I’m no fan of Lincoln either, did not like him suspending laws or amendments during the conflict. This is a recipe for abuse of individuals and rights which happened to people in both north and south, but more so in the south. Never did understand how we could have treated our own kind so badly.

The President, any President of this country, does not have the authority to suspend the Constitution (or parts thereof) for any reason, time of war included. Never has. But the result of Lincoln’s actions was that he was doing exactly what we (as a group or government) had done to others on this continent from the beginning. The only difference was that it was now being done to us.

You wrote: “try picking up at 1860 and moving forward, what you will find is that we're the bad guys in almost every example.”

I think we’ve been the bad guys from the beginning, so what was it that gave hope to the world? Give me your huddled masses yearning to breathe free (because we need cheap labor to build this country?). Or was it “Come to America, we have free land for you. All you have to do is kill off the savages that now live there?”

BTW, you really don’t know my views either. Given the state of affairs in this country, and I do understand where we are at this point, no form of electronic communications is secure. Choose your words carefully.






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A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
People do not exist for the Government, Government exists for the People
How can we discuss this alemos?

the answer is we can't, you have declared you have no interest in the politics of the past.

It is clear you don't know the difference between Jefferson and Madison.

Read, extensively on what Jefferson wrote and I'll be happy to have this conversation, but I can't have it with someone who doesn't know the difference between Jeffersonian thinking and Hamiltonian thinking and is not interested in them.

The entire point I am making is about that difference, if you can't delineate and explain it and are not interested in hearing about it, we have nothing to discuss.

as a side note, i am sure you will have a problem with, the most prosperous recorded period of human history was from around 1840-1860 in the USA. I wonder if you know why?
Quote:Read, extensively on what Jefferson wrote and I'll be happy to have this conversation, but I can't have it with someone who doesn't know the difference between Jeffersonian thinking and Hamiltonian thinking and is not interested in them.

I have just read and scanned Washington Rules : (borrowed from library)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/books ... ass-t.html

I would like to ask a favor of Morbius if you had just 3 writings for each side which 3 would you recommend ?

I see we are 'stuck' in a two-party system that is part of a whole that is multifaceted unfolding pattern ... both these men had different Economic theories ( I hold with Jefferson ) as well as Political rule , life, government armies etc...

I'm just curious to find good operational quotational arguments for either divide

Please and Thanx in advance :uni:
wow bob good question. I'll give that some thought and give you an answer. definitely need some more coffee to get the brain going!
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-ta ... s=spy-talk

CIA brain experiments pursued in veterans’ suit
By Jeff Stein

The CIA is notorious for its Cold War-era experiments with LSD and other chemicals on unwitting citizens and soldiers. Details have emerged in books and articles beginning more than 30 years ago.

But if military veterans have their way in a California law suit, the spy agency’s quest to turn humans into robot-like assassins via electrodes planted in their brains will get far more exposure than the drugs the CIA tested on subjects ranging from soldiers to unwitting bar patrons and the clients of prostitutes.

It’s not just science fiction -- or the imaginings of the mentally ill.

In 1961, a top CIA scientist reported in an internal memo that "the feasibility of remote control of activities in several species of animals has been demonstrated…Special investigations and evaluations will be conducted toward the application of selected elements of these techniques to man," according to “The CIA and the Search for the Manchurian Candidate,” a 1979 book by former State Department intelligence officer John Marks.

“[T]his cold-blooded project,” Marks wrote, “was designed … for the delivery of chemical and biological agents or for ‘executive action-type operations,’ according to a document. ‘Executive action’ was the CIA's euphemism for assassination.”

The CIA pursued such experiments because it was convinced the Soviets were doing the same.

Victims have sought justice for years, in vain. Now, almost 40 years later, a federal magistrate has ordered the CIA to produce records and witnesses about the LSD and other experiments “allegedly conducted on thousands of soldiers from 1950 through 1975,” according to news accounts.

U.S. Magistrate Judge John Larsen’s Nov. 17 order exempted the agency from having to testify about electrode tests on humans, but Gordon P. Erspamer, lead attorney for the veterans, says “we are pursuing this as well.”

“There is no question that these experiments were done,” Erspamer said by e-mail Tuesday, “but defendants say that they used private researchers and test subjects drawn from prisons, hospitals and nursing homes as subjects, not active duty military [personnel]. CIA said it had no one knowledgeable on this topic.”

Erspamer, senior counsel in the San Francisco office of Morrison & Foerster, said “several” CIA witnesses “are…still alive,” naming some that have been publicly identified, but opting to keep secret others before he calls them.

Papers filed in the case describe “electrical devices implanted in brain tissue with electrodes in various regions, including the hippocampus, the hypothalamus, the frontal lobe (via the septum), the cortex and various other places,” Erspamer said, drawing on [research papers] (http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ ... cument.pdf) written by government scientists.

“We believe that one of our plaintiffs was given a septal implant at [Edgewood Arsenal] (www.edgewoodtestvets.org),” he said, based on an MRI he has “showing a ‘foreign body’ on the border between the septum and the frontal lobe.”

“A lot of this work was done out of Tulane University using a local state hospital and funding from a cut-out (front) organization called the Commonwealth Fund,” he continued, again drawing on the research papers.

“We tried to get docs from Tulane, but they told us that they were destroyed in the hurricane flooding.”

The CIA claims that at least some of the documents should remain classified as “state secrets.” But Magistrate Larson told the agency to come back with a better rationale, a "supplemental declaration explaining with heightened specificity" why the documents should be protected after all these years.
Morbius,

My reluctance to discuss the past is predicated on the conditions we face today. It matters little to me how we got to this state of affairs, but rather how we get out of this state. I wasn’t there during that time period, it’s gone and done and nothing can be done about it. If all you wish to do is engage in an academic exercise, explaining how things have gone wrong and what could have been done differently, that’s fine. I’m sure others on board will discuss the issues. I’d rather concentrate on what can be done now and what could be done in the future. Understand that this is not meant to be mean spirited or dismissive. It’s just that we need to concentrate efforts on curing an ailing patient. Actions are required, not words.

We are currently faced with the loss of the soul of this country. Some think that it is too late to retrieve it, I do not. I have never held the philosophy of “My Country Right or Wrong” much to the chagrin of my close friends who do. I want this country to be right, and moral in what it does.

When there exists a facility that monitors every phone call (whether land line, internet based, satellite or cellular), email, fax, and text message; there’s something wrong. They say they don’t monitor American citizens but that’s bull shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency

One of NSA's published patents describes a method of geographically locating an individual computer site in an Internet-like network, based on the latency of multiple network connections. Other patents are secret and remain so unless a third party applies, then it is granted to the NSA. God only knows what technology is out there in use. Cellular phones can be tracked by on board GPS circuitry. The movie “Eagle Eye”, may not be far from the truth concerning available technology that tracks our every move. So we know where you live, and when you are on the move.

NSA is reported to use its computing capability to analyze "transactional" data that it regularly acquires from other government agencies, which gather it under their own jurisdictional authorities. As part of this effort, NSA now monitors huge volumes of records of domestic emails and Internet searches as well as bank transfers, credit-card transactions and travel and telephone records, according to current and former intelligence officials interviewed by the Wall Street Journal. So we know what you look at, order online, where you travel etc. In short, we know pretty much everything about you. So you better believe if someone wants to find out about you in the Government, there are multiple files with all the information of your life that can be displayed on the computer screens in Homeland Security Headquarters.

When a country begins to put in place mechanisms to house detainees for peaceful demonstrations, there’s something wrong.

American Detention Center – 2004 RNC GULAG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031OJfVaf...re=related

The DNC did the same thing.

Everyone is concerned about undocumented aliens in this country, and continually bitch about illegal immigrants. This is what’s happening to them and is a precursor to what will happen to the rest of us. If the Government continually selects various segments of the population, and does not afford them the basic protections under the Constitution, how soon will it be when the segment you are a part of becomes the next target? Whom do we target next? Gays and Lesbians? Muslims? Catholics? Blacks? Anyone attempting to practice free speech?

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency is holding an untold number of people in secretively maintained detention facilities all over the United States. That’s according to an explosive report thats the cover story of the latest issue of The Nation magazine. They also report that ICE agents regularly impersonate civilians and rely on other illegal tricks to arrest longtime US residents who have no criminal history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaJBTN0JZ...ature=fvwp

Ice’s Northwest Detention center, one of many throughout our land. Run by the GEO group which is connected with Wells Fargo Banking. There’s that damned banking sector again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTrR1s7du...re=related

Very soon, the American people will be treated to screenings like the following, not only at bus stations but at train stations, sports events, or any other venue that draws large crowds. It’s only a short walk in the park before we have roadblock checkpoints as well.

(Thanks to Wookie for posting)

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/vi...o_id=13259

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaMdE5zC...embedded#!

Hell, we’re even making shit up so as to keep America scared. Thank you FBI for protecting us from terrorists that don’t know how to build a bomb let alone recognize a real detonator. Of course you had to teach him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SFpydA2...r_embedded

Not to mention those fucking people at TSA who are completely out of control, period!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkQoiaf7Uc

And here’s one for the records:

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/phpBB/vi...c7b232f80a

The most recent attempt at a similar take over began with 9-11:

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/phpBB/vi...c7b232f80a

Although taped somewhat earlier, this is as prescient today, if not more so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYE...r_embedded

It’s time to rein this shit in.

If this Government continues to treat the entire population of the United States as terrorists, my belief is that they will have to deal with a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Clean your muskets and make sure your powder is dry, boys and girls.

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A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
People do not exist for the Government, Government exists for the People
One interesting matter to me that I just realized is that this country is having its EIGHTH Saturn return... at 14 degrees Libra which is happening right now and will be back and forth over that very degree for at least the next 10 months... Saturn 'returns' to the place of its Natal positioning every 29 years or so depending on its particular orb cycle per planet transit.

This is a good yet very stressful process and it is cyclic-this Saturn transit... so to see this for yourself-the power of the Saturn return transit-for those lucky enough to have experienced TWO making you around 58/60 in years... what happened when you had your first one and second one in your own life? Usually profound actions... babies being born, marriages, divorces-deaths occur frequently at the time of the Saturn returns, the energies are so strong. Even 'deaths' of the ways that have not served or suited the vehicle holding all this constantly cycling energy.
Gardener,

Damn! You nailed that one right.

For what it’s worth, here’s the odd part, I’m a Libra and actually 64. So based upon your 29 year cycle, Saturn will have entered my life on 3 different occasions.

1st Saturn encounter, roughly when I was 6 in 1952. Major event was my parents separation and having to move from one state to another, with eventual divorce.

2nd Saturn encounter, when I was 35 in 1981. Major event was the birth of our only child.

3rd Saturn encounter - ?

___________________________________________________________________________________________
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
People do not exist for the Government, Government exists for the People.
Quote:Gardener,

Damn! You nailed that one right.

For what it’s worth, here’s the odd part, I’m a Libra and actually 64. So based upon your 29 year cycle, Saturn will have entered my life on 3 different occasions.

1st Saturn encounter, roughly when I was 6 in 1952. Major event was my parents separation and having to move from one state to another, with eventual divorce.

2nd Saturn encounter, when I was 35 in 1981. Major event was the birth of our only child.

3rd Saturn encounter - ?

___________________________________________________________________________________________
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
People do not exist for the Government, Government exists for the People.


I am also a Libra and I am 38.

I have had a major event, actually every aspect of my life has changed because of one friend i've made.

It is a phrase used too often, but it's true in this case, "restored my faith in humanity".

I truly, honestly could have said I did not know one person, not a single one in the world who really cared about me or what happened to me, there was no kindness before.

This transition is ongoing and it is quite jarring, we will see what happens with her.

Anyway onto your previous post, does it surprise you I generally agree with you? Probably not.

I am absolutely interested in fixing things after the great collapse and almost certain break up of the USA into multiple countries.

I am convinced the answers lay in our past, we had them and turned away from them, it's time to regain them.

I am a huge believer in Natural Law, an idea that fell out of favor after Darwin's writing was perverted and Marx become popular, Keynes damage to our culture is simply to great to put into words, but none of them could have happened without Lincoln.

It is not enough to control the machine, I am past that point. I do not believe that a credit based debt economy can work to do anything other than destroy society, civilization, reducing people to animals that feed on each other because they have no choice.

There is no "if we could only fix this one thing", the entire foundation is rotten, it's decayed right to it's very core.

Things that would have to change in order to have the world work as a decent and human place:

1. money must be honest, no fiat currencies.

2. government must be reduced to a point where it is, as they complained about the Articles before betraying their mandate and drafting a new Constitution, "it's almost impossible to get anything done". - this is critical to understanding my view, government cannot actually do anything to help anyone, all it does is damage.

3. withholding tax must be abolished and direct national taxes must also be abolished. If we were to remain a Federated Republic all Federal Revenue would have to be derived from the states, not the people. This empowers the states and the governors to starve the beast should it ever try to grow again.

4. The standing professional army must be abolished. - it is arguable we need a very small, less than 1/20 the size we have, navy, air force and coast guard. The Marines are not needed, nor is the Army, here is why. The Marines are an invasion force, it's what they are trained and conditioned for, they storm the beaches and gain the ground initially. The Army is an occupation force, it's only purpose is to occupy other countries and control their land and population. The Posse Comitatus Act forbids them operating on American soil so that is all they can do, that's one of the most important laws in our history and MUST be respected.

Further and this is critical, NO NATION CAN INVADE THE USA. We have the second largest, and most deadly nuclear arsenal on earth, anyone who tried to invade would have no where to go home to, this will never be attempted. Thus we have no need of the largest standing military the world has ever known, simply no need. A well armed national guard type militia at the state level is more than sufficient, even that may be too much.

5. Finally we must roll back over 20 years of police militarization that started under Regan with the selling of surplus military hardware to the local police departments. Remember Andy Griffith? does he have anything in common with the Jack-boot soldiers that currently patrol our streets and highways?

I am not naive, we need to be treated like we live in the worlds largest outdoor prison not because we are animals and people are always animals.

We need to be treated that way because we are now so enslaved and so impoverished that people are literally going to war and feeding on their neighbors and family members as a result of this incredibly sick society they cannot possibly "LIVE" in.

There can be no argument that the 20th century was by far the most horrific and barbaric in history. The death toll from wars and governments might even reach 1 billion, it is definitely over 700 million in that century.

There is simply no historical comparison for the horrors unleashed on all of humanity by Nationalism, Communism, Socialism, Capitalism - all just institutionalized, legalized barbarism of a type that free people would never have allowed at any time in the past.

the system will collapse, it cannot be preserved any longer, it is becoming more evident as time goes on.

I want something much better than more of the same, what do you want to see?

EDIT: I have not forgotten your question bob, it is difficult to answer because we live in Hamilton's view, and Jefferson's seems like a fairy tale.

I hate to equivocate, but in order to understand Jefferson it is necessary to understand John Locke, it is necessary to understand the french revolution and that he was a contemporary of Napoleon. This is not often taught in America, just as the Magna Carta is not often taught.

It is easy to provide writings for Hamilton, we can relate to his view, we see it every day, it is much harder to select 3 for Jefferson.

I had a truly horrible day and haven't had time to finish thinking on that, I'll get back to you I hope tomorrow on it.
Quote:...just as the Magna Carta is not often taught.

Wait, what? Or do you mean its "true" meaning or something? Because this definitly apeared during history classes. Without going into detail, it was taught that it forced the king to obey the laws everyone else had to etc and that he could not do whatever he wanted.


Ah yes, and as to the planet stuff, I dont pay attention to that very much, but interestingly enough, I am supposed to graduate from college this month and get a job, possibly other stuff happens too. This reminds me how I still have to find references. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rofl.gif" alt="Rofl" title="rofl" />
I was speaking of the circumstances around it and events leading up to it in detail. Maybe you got a better education than I did Tarius, it wasn't taught to me any more than it was taught to me that the "Constitutional Convention" wasn't supposed to draft a new one. What I was taught on the subject, like so much of how history was taught to me, was just fairy tale to serve a modern purpose.
Morbius

Hope you’ve had a better day. If it applies, try concentrating on the goal rather than on the obstacles placed before you in achieving that goal.

Glad to hear that you chose to get back in the fray, trying to uplift humanity. It’s nice having a partner with which to go through life. Not sure I could have arrived at the same destination without mine.

Interesting that you are also a Libra. Libran’s require balance in their lives and realities. There is none currently, it creates cognitive dissonance within us and forces us to action to restore that balance.

“am absolutely interested in fixing things after the great collapse and almost certain break up of the USA into multiple countries.”

I hope to God you are incorrect on that assertion, but fear that your prediction may have credence given the trend that has become evident in the past 10 years. If that comes to pass, there is very little for individuals to do except bend over and kiss their ass goodbye. For you speak of utter chaos as a transition to something that will be unmanageable to put anything resembling what you seek in place. The result must necessarily be a return to the dark ages and the way people tried to survive during that time period.

So if people really believe that will happen, they better start getting ready now in an attempt to be as self sufficient as possible, for as long as possible. Think of an existence with no electricity (or rationed if you are lucky), no gasoline for vehicles because of interruptions in deliveries, and no or very little food on the grocery shelves for the same reason. Add to that roving bands of hungry pissed off people and the mix gets ugly very quickly. That’s why I prefer working on what we have as a transition to what needs to be done. I’m concerned with how to get from point A to point B, and arrive bruised, perhaps bloody, but fairly much intact, not dead in a process that will set us back hundreds of years.

Disagree somewhat about reducing the size of the Military. Agreed that at present it is structured as an external strike force. That’s what the neocon (AKA Nazi) movement has put into place. They’re still trying to take over the world. I still believe that a fairly sized military is needed if only for assistance to the population of this country during disasters, and there will be more of those in the future (eighteen inches of rain in one area in a short period of time is not normal). Nobody does this function better than the Military. FEMA pales in comparison, they don’t know shit about this type of thing when the likes of a person like Brown headed the agency during Katrina. Horse trainer or stable owner, whatever he had as credentials? Give me a fucking break.

Concerning current use of the Military you said:

“The Posse Comitatus Act forbids them operating on American soil so that is all they can do, that's one of the most important laws in our history and MUST be respected.”

Agreed the act is critical, except that the Government always has a loophole. All they have to do is imply the use of drug production and submit false testimony to either a regular court or FISA and this act is nullified. WACO was a prime example of that strategy.


“what do you want to see?”

Who the hell knows? Opinions are like assholes, everbody’s got one.

Certainly, if one attempts to work within the existing structure, there are some major changes needed.

We need to educate people to the fact that 9-11 was not perpetrated by an external attack on us, but was a very complex and effective plan orchestrated to grab power in this country in order to implement what has transpired within the last 9 years. It could not have been successful unless certain situations were in place that could only have been accomplished by those in the highest positions of our trust, not some rag tag group of camel jockeys fresh off the desert. We weren’t attacked then and we haven’t been since. The handful of kooks (Shoe bomber, Underwear bomber, kid that had to be taught bomber) that we’ve been offered as such in the interim (out of 308 million people in the US I might add) would have been branded home grown idiots 20 years ago, not terrorists.

It saddens me to note, without equivocation, that presently we have more to fear from our own government than from any external boogey man.

The most recent egregious affronts to our rights and liberty have been caused by the passage of the Patriot Act. That law must be rescinded and most of what it has created dismantled.

Although I am not a member, the Tea Party has the right idea. Get rid of every incumbent, career politician by placing viable candidates on the ticket for election with a clear mandate to overhaul this monstrosity. Our existing political parties, both Republican and Democrat are not to be trusted anymore. They’ve been feeding at the trough of big business far too long and have been ineffectual in changing anything or protecting us, as our rights have been systematically neutralized.

Most people do not want to exist under the auspices of extreme left or extreme right. So, perhaps, an Independent Party of America is required. A clear and concise platform of real change might be helpful, beginning with restoring our rights and clearing away the mechanisms in place that continually seek to destroy them.

That would include removing all special interest groups (including big business) and their hold on congress.

Change the rule in congress that allows multiple amendments to be attached to bills being considered. Now in order to pass something good and moral, 27 other questionable items giving away money or taking our freedoms must be accepted to accomplish anything. Let the bill stand on its own, up or down on its own merits.

Limit the congressional term of office to two years, period. I think that was what was initially intended by the founding fathers. You can correct me if I’m in error on that. If you want to go back to congress, maybe you can get re-elected in another cycle.

Abolish the Electoral College. Counting ballots results in a more realistic return closer to the truth than the manipulation of voting districts and made up numbers.

Get rid of the damned electronic voting machines. Because they are essentially computers, there is too much leeway in those devices for fraud. At the very least, paper ballots should back them up. Entire elections can be won or lost depending on how these things are programmed. Who knows that except the companies that provide them (and what ties do they have?).

Taxes: There has to be some sort of tax structure to fund programs that we deem necessary. Initially I would suggest a flat tax. Don’t care who you are, what you make, everybody pays x% to the government. No loopholes, no deductions, no nothing. Get rid of the Internal Revenue Service and its 10,000 rules and regulations. But this won’t happen given current situations because corporations, although they bitch and scream about paying taxes, actually pay very little in comparison. Here’s an example of some of the techniques that are in their arsenal to avoid paying taxes:

One of the most useful tools in the tax game arsenal is the ability to shift income between taxable years. Individuals report their taxable income based on the January 1 to December 31 calendar year. S corporations are required to also use the calendar fiscal year, allowing no opportunity to shift income between years. C corporations, however, can end their fiscal year at the end of any month. The first tax return will almost always be less than a full 12 months, so don't worry about coordinating it with the incorporation date. How this saves on taxes is pretty straight forward. Toward the end of your personal fiscal year (12/31), you bleed off some of your taxable income to your C corp by paying it for something like rent or marketing services. In January, your corporation can pay it back to you. Near the end of the corp's fiscal year, bleed its net profits out by paying yourself This back and forth income shifting can go on for a long time. Sometimes income is never taxed; or if it is, we make sure that it is taxed at the lowest rate possible (15%).

Those are just a few thoughts that come to mind.

And in closing here’s another tidbit to ponder. This, IMO, is absolute insanity on the part of the Judicial Branch. Or perhaps, just another item being put in place for some future necessity?

Under the law, corporations are considered to be an “entity” unto themselves. On 21 January, 2010, the Supreme Court made an historical and future impacting decision based upon a 5-4 vote.

The January 21 ruling on the case between the nonprofit Citizens United and the Federal Election Commission invoked the clause in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that guarantees free speech. Although corporations and unions cannot make direct contributions to U.S. politicians, a slim majority of justices (5–4) decided that, like people, those types of entities should still have the right to unlimited expression of their political views.

http://www.america.gov/st/usg-english/20...00397.html

On the surface one might say, so what. It just means more money for the politicians trying to get elected. IMO, it has set into motion one of the most dangerous situations that has ever befallen us. For if this “entity” has been granted the first amendment right of “Free Speech”, how long will it be before other rights under the constitution will be granted? And what ramifications does that possibility have that will affect us as citizens.

Scary shit.
I propose a new thread "solutions"
Quote:I propose a new thread "solutions"

You are free to do so ... however some "solutions" are being proposed right here on THIS particular topic which goes to a fundamental "consensus reality" that has whole vastness of subtleties even if we presume some "basic foundations" ... which themselves are NOT 'entrenched' in everyone's pariticular belief, childhood, desires, dreams, educational, factual, general, monetary etc ... systems of experiences that bring us all to the "NOW" T-Stori of how we proceed from HERE is, in flact fact brutal truth, based on HOW we got to this point from OUR perspective.

As I am fond of saying since seeing the 1st Matrix movie ... I Swallowed BOTH the blue and red pills.

Rotatingheart

Morbius ... take your time ... thank you for sharing your 38 age ... I am 58.10 or so 59 in feb 15 2011 ... if we make it. Worship

Thank You Universe. :uni:
Quote:You are free to do so ... however some "solutions" are being proposed right here on THIS particular topic which goes to a fundamental "consensus reality" that has whole vastness of subtleties even if we presume some "basic foundations" ... which themselves are NOT 'entrenched' in everyone's pariticular belief, childhood, desires, dreams, educational, factual, general, monetary etc ... systems of experiences that bring us all to the "NOW" T-Stori of how we proceed from HERE is, in flact fact brutal truth, based on HOW we got to this point from OUR perspective.

Yes, I thought some solutions were good and did not want the thread to get mish mashed so the solution suggestion.. There are some way bright peeps here, and since most here get what the problems are, and not so many talk of solutions, myself included, I thought it might be a good idea.
Quote:[quote author="I.M. Huami"]I propose a new thread "solutions"

You are free to do so ... however some "solutions" are being proposed right here on THIS particular topic which goes to a fundamental "consensus reality" that has whole vastness of subtleties even if we presume some "basic foundations" ... which themselves are NOT 'entrenched' in everyone's pariticular belief, childhood, desires, dreams, educational, factual, general, monetary etc ... systems of experiences that bring us all to the "NOW" T-Stori of how we proceed from HERE is, in flact fact brutal truth, based on HOW we got to this point from OUR perspective.

As I am fond of saying since seeing the 1st Matrix movie ... I Swallowed BOTH the blue and red pills.

Rotatingheart

Morbius ... take your time ... thank you for sharing your 38 age ... I am 58.10 or so 59 in feb 15 2011 ... if we make it. Worship

Thank You Universe. :uni:[/quote]


so you are also a Saturn in Libra double dipper! Aquarian like Samurai... I know it has been hard for your hearts and minds and accompanying souls to digest the indignities we've all suffered from with the gradual increases in abuses that have now got the pot and kettle both raging boiling... we're the frogs that jumped out when the boilers weren't paying attention... You, Bob, with your heart having problems bearing all this idiotic deadly antics-Samurai not being able to breathe... Cardio/Pulmonary System... under full bore attack pretty much our entire lives. Hard to choke down when you're a true 'head'...
We'll make it to 2011, at least the 1st quarter, beyond that is anyone's guess.

I have a lot of thoughts at the moment, they will probably be random, but I want to post since for the 3rd time in 3 years my life has been destroyed and I can't sleep. A quick aside on what I just said. I am being forced by law to move back to Maryland until April 1st. It seems the land of the free isn't even close anymore, if i don't go back I'll probably have to go to jail, without boring you with details it's all about debt and i'm going to declare bankruptcy. It will all be ok, but i'm very heartbroken because for the first time in my life i actually have friends who care about and accept me for who i really am. I have never had that before, in 2 marriages and with my friends and family i always had to hide/suppress at least part of who i really am. Apparently I'm emotionally intense, very smart and the combination is more than most people can stand. /sigh.

Anyway back to the topic at hand. I.M. Huami has a valid point, but I think perhaps it's a little early in that part to start a new thread, we'd need more ideas thrown out to keep it going.

It's even interesting that alemos and I started out quite arguing only to find that we agree more than we disagree.

I think our major points of disagreement revolve around the fact that I'm a radical, I do not want to even compromise the ideal because in practice it's always compromised. That seems to be the nature of humanity. If we start out striving for perfection, what we get is something less than that, but if we start out striving for a 'middle ground of practical', what we'll get is far less than that.

another major point of disagreement between he and i revolves around my bitterness towards my country. I am sorry, i do not love "ground".

My government has betrayed me numerous times:

I was lied to and betrayed both during and after my military service, i'm a veteran of desert shield and storm.

I was lied to and feel betrayed by them during my time working for FEMA, I was the lead IT technician for the MDRC program for several years including 2004-6. MDRC is "Mobile Disaster Recovery Center", these are satellite communications trucks deployed to disaster sites, I was deployed to the aftermath of hurricane Rita.

I was lied to my entire life about the nature of money, credit and inflation. I have posted the graph several times but it bears showing again. I was born in 1972, I have had absolutely no chance of overcoming this and improving my standard of living:
[Image: cpi1800740709.gif]

I have been betrayed by my fellow citizens and their seemingly insatiable appetite for trying to vote me, as one of only 60 million productive citizens, into slavery in their attempt to "get something for nothing". I currently pay 60% of what I make in taxes, I am 60% slave it's that simple.

I will not be sorry to see the Amerikan Empire perish from the earth.

I will not be sorry to see it break up into multiple countries, the citizens of South Carolina have virtually nothing in common with the Citizens of California. They do not have a common culture, they do not have a common value set, and to be quite honest they are not mutually beneficial to each other. The citizens of Maryland where I spent half my adult life have even less in common with decent people since they live in the very shadow of Mordor and are heavily under its influence.

Every day I have national laws forced on me by what really amounts to being the population of several key states, laws which have little or no practical desire in other parts of the country.

I ask you, what do I owe people 3000 miles away with which i have nothing in common?

I am taxed as part of national ponzi scheme to support the older members of their population, even the notion of 'national defense' has little meaning.

If it were up to me we would partition the country in 2. Let the Socialists have their half and those who believe in Liberty have their half. This of course cannot be peacefully done because the Socialists have to leach off the productive in order to have their schemes work. They cannot let their economic slaves go, to do so would be utterly disastrous for the 240million+ non-productive people in this country who survive only by standing on those who do produce.

Make no mistake, i am not against charity, carrying for those who cannot care for themselves or even the concept of a "social safety net". However this cannot be done on this scale, it has to be on a community by community basis or it will always become tyrannical. There will always be more people trying to get in the wagon than there will be people "volunteering" to pull it.

I tend to get there first, possibly because I am sensitive to the subject of Liberty, maybe because I'm observant, but other people come to the same conclusions I do eventually.

Even my mother has come to some of my more radical conclusions, she's a died-in-the-wool stateist if i've ever seen one.
For Example:

I will no longer take on debt i cannot pay off in short order. I bought a junker car for $1000 because i couldn't get financing for a car of $3500, but i could get financing for a car of $12000. I refused the higher loan. This is a devastating view in a credit based economy.

I will no longer make as much gross income as i can. I noticed quite a lot when after I crossed the $50k per year mark I was only getting a small percentage more money, $300 more every 2 weeks at 80k than at 50k. the math doesn't work out on that one, i moved into a higher tax bracket. I did some research, a single person starts pulling the wagon at $45k, i won't make more than that again. I would rather be a drain to the system than contribute.

People all over are arriving at this kind of thinking. Soon people will realize that houses will never regain their "pretend" value of a few years ago. They still have 15 to 20% to drop nation wide. When this becomes evident people will start walking away from their mortgages in numbers we can't even imagine. They will calculate what's good for their families and rent smaller places while they restructure their lives.

within the next year those 3 views will enter the main stream consciousness of the USA, when it does the game is over, this will be the trigger to our complete economic collapse. Foreign investors will stop buying our debt as our GDP contracts and the last of our bubbles pops.

The age of our top down, dictatorial empire that started with Lincoln is ending. His concept of a central bank issuing "Greenbacks" will die a quick death, we all know it will happen, it is possible i have a few details wrong but I've outlined the general mechanism for how it will end.

What comes next? we will see but i am going to need some :uni:
Morbius wrote:

It's even interesting that alemos and I started out quite arguing only to find that we agree more than we disagree.

I think our major points of disagreement revolve around the fact that I'm a radical, I do not want to even compromise the ideal because in practice it's always compromised. That seems to be the nature of humanity. If we start out striving for perfection, what we get is something less than that, but if we start out striving for a 'middle ground of practical', what we'll get is far less than that.

another major point of disagreement between he and i revolves around my bitterness towards my country. I am sorry, i do not love "ground".

My government has betrayed me numerous times:

Discussion of an opinion or belief is not necessarily disagreement. I have very seldom articulated what I really feel concerning politics or religion or some of the other hot button issues. People are too entrenched in them sometimes, so trying to change their outlook is fruitless. Besides, all of these are based upon personal experiences throughout life and what we have taken from our families and friends views of reality.

I have two very close friends whom have been by my side for many years. We disagree on various things and often hotly discuss politics as the bloody mary’s kick in while fixing breakfast. It has only been recently, although suspected most of my life, that I truly realized that it is a waste of time, It doesn’t matter who gets into office, the same shit happens over and over and over again.

From an early age, I have never trusted this Government. That SEE, or Significant Emotional Event occurred for me on 22 November 1963, the assassination of John F. Kennedy. I was a senior in high school soon to graduate into a world I no longer trusted. From that time forward I believed very little the Government said in public and learned later through military experience some of the things that go on behind the scenes. The demonstrations of the 60s, particularly the event at Kent State where college students were actually killed by our own military, left a lasting impression on me. As I grew older I began to see the forces behind the scenes continually manipulating and stirring the pot to insure that indeed there would be no Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men or beasts.

So we really disagree on very little, only perhaps how to correct it.

Not sure what label I would attach to myself. On any given day, if in a good mood, it could be Constitutionalist. On another, perhaps Hawk. And still another , Anarchist. It depends upon how much effort my mind uses to block out certain aspects of reality as that reality progresses.

But basically, I’m a realist and because of my military training, almost always plan for “worse case scenario”. If it does happen that way, there has been some preparation to survive it, if it doesn’t, hey it’s good thing anyway. I’m also a survivalist , not in the bunker mentality sense, but given the next event, law, whatever coming down the pike, one must always ask how does one minimize or sidestep the personal effects that it might have. Very few people think about future ramifications of their personal decisions. It’s all right now, never attempting to peer into the future and asking “what if”. That’s thanks to our dumbed down educational system and an economic system that teaches buy, buy, buy even if you already have five of the same damned things.

We have all been exposed to the debt scheme that continually seeks, with the complicity of the government, to enslave us financially. My wife and I learned very early on with the purchase of our home years ago that we would be paying as much for interest over 20 years as we paid for the damned house. That was unacceptable to both of us. So the new car, or new tv, or new whatever was sacrificed and we paid it off sooner, thus saving countless thousands in interest. It’s even worse today, I would never, ever agree to an adjusted rate mortgage. Fixed for me, and the lowest possible if available. If not forgo the purchase.

The same for credit cards. We have them, we use them, but the use is at our convenience and not at the convenience of the credit card companies who hate customers like us. Never, ever, let the balance begin to charge interest and fall into their trap,that allows you to pay a minimum payment. Pay it off immediately when the statement comes. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t have a credit card in the first place. Otherwise, you run the risk of becoming their slave for life, and I do mean life. That’s how it is structured and what they want to do to you. There is no way in hell that anyone should be paying 25% interest on money. Any other entity doing that would be considered organized crime under federal law.

I find it interesting that the Republicans, when in power last cycle, passed new legislation making it more difficult for people to declare bankruptcy. Did they know, or foresee, the effects of the TARP event and its ramifications?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with declaring bankruptcy. Hell, if the government has bailed the banks and credit card companies out of debt, and left us “hanging in the wind”, this appears the only way IMO for some of us to get our debt removed from the books also. And why shouldn’t we? There are some ramifications down the pike if you do however. I don’t know your particulars, but any property you currently own may be seized during the process, but there may be exemptions depending on what chapter you use. It will affect your credit score and ability to apply for loans etc. But if you don’t care about that, it’s not an issue. It could impact trying to rent or get a job. If you live with someone else, this might not be an issue either, Of course, there are no damned jobs, so that’s a non starter.

Just understand that you have been caught up in something that, although partially may have occurred by personal decisions, does not mean you failed in any way. That stigma is a piece of psychological shit baggage we carry because of being brainwashed and placed in play by people that don’t want you to declare bankruptcy in the first place. They want their money. I just read where as of 10 Jan 2010

“there has been a huge surge in bankruptcy filings, and we’re only at the tip of the iceberg; chapter 7 and 13 filings have risen to nearly 1 million this year. That’s a 28% rise over 2007 and the year ain’t even over. Over 5 million families could file next year, and that’s a very conservative estimate. It would terrify you to know how many of the households in the USA are insolvent.”

So I guess large portions of the country are all failures. NO!!!!!

So here’s a possible solution for others if they can do it, and its not too late. It’s a hard pill to swallow, and maybe virtually impossible at this stage because of all that has happened. Tighten your belts, do not buy anything you don’t actually need to survive. Pay only cash. If you have any extra, split it. One part for emergency funds, one part to pay down the debt that you have. Keep doing that until you get out from under. Don’t buy anything on credit, nothing. This is one of the most sensitive times of the year with Christmas coming. We all want to provide toys for our children and gifts for our family and friends. If you truly can’t buy it with cash, don’t buy it at all.

I’ll get back in the next post on “the breaking up of states into individual countries” and discuss why it may not happen.

It just occurred to me that sombody may have been giving as a subtle hint during the Y2K event. Learn to live without all this materialistic crap. I’ll give you 10 years, then the hammer will drop.

<img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rotatingheart.gif" alt="Rotatingheart" title="rotatingheart" /> God
________________________________________________________________________________________
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
People do not exist for the Government, Government exists for the People
Quote:I am being forced by law to move back to Maryland until April 1st. It seems the land of the free isn't even close anymore, if i don't go back I'll probably have to go to jail, without boring you with details it's all about debt and i'm going to declare bankruptcy. It will all be ok, but i'm very heartbroken because for the first time in my life i actually have friends who care about and accept me for who i really am. I have never had that before, in 2 marriages and with my friends and family i always had to hide/suppress at least part of who i really am. Apparently I'm emotionally intense, very smart and the combination is more than most people can stand. /sigh.
(snip)
oh yea, my favorite...... Luv

First order is understanding what you HAVE you stated you did NOT have before :

[quote]i actually have friends who care about and accept me for who i really am.

Do NOT Discount the Power or Blessing of this Rofl

Hiding and supressions are like 'secret sores' that tend to fester and boil out anyhooo ...

better off being up front from the git-go ... this is me ... don't like ... move along .... :uni:
Here’s what’s partially wrong with America and why I mentioned a flat rate with absolutely no loopholes for anybody. Most taxes come from the middle to lower brackets because we have no loopholes. Wall

The Gap Between Statutory and Real Corporate Tax Rates
Actual taxes paid by consistently profitable Fortune 500 companies now is less than half the statutory rate
By Robert McIntyre and T.D. Coo Nguyen
First published by the Multinational Monitor, Vol 25, No. 11
Ostensibly, the U.S. federal tax code requires corporations to pay 35 percent of their profits in income taxes.
But of the 275 Fortune 500 companies that made a profit each year from 2001 to 2003 and for which adequate information to draw conclusions is publicly available, only a small proportion paid federal income taxes anywhere near that statutory 35 percent tax rate. The vast majority paid considerably less.
In fact, in 2002 and 2003, the average effective tax rate for all of these 275 companies was less than half the statutory 35 percent rate. Over the 2001-2003 period, effective tax rates ranged from a low of -59.6 percent for Pepco Holdings to a high of 34.5 percent for CVS.
Over the three-year period, the average effective rate for all 275 companies dropped by a fifth, from 21.4 percent in 2001 to 17.2 percent in 2002-2003.
The statistics are startling: Scream
Quote:alemos says......My reluctance to discuss the past is predicated on the conditions we face today. It matters little to me how we got to this state of affairs, but rather how we get out of this state. I wasn’t there during that time period, it’s gone and done and nothing can be done about it.

<img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/whistle.gif" alt="Whistle" title="whistle" /> He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it.
Quote:
alemos says......My reluctance to discuss the past is predicated on the conditions we face today. It matters little to me how we got to this state of affairs, but rather how we get out of this state. I wasn’t there during that time period, it’s gone and done and nothing can be done about it.
Hmm2

http://www.quantumjumping.com/lp/subcons...7QodcS7Djw

Imagine an existence that creates every possible variation of life itself, in every sort of environment and those life forms fortunate enough to survive, prosper and propagate.

Gives a whole new meaning to natural selection. Darwin may have been way off. Organisms may not necessarily change to fit their environment, infinite variations of organisms may simply die off because of their environment.

Imagine a universe that creates every imaginable reality (or present and future), ours being only one of an infinite many.

Somewhere, in another reality, Jefferson won. The South won the war. States rights were upheld. And there was a perfect society.

Unfortunately, that is not the reality in which we currently live.

Keeping this thread alive until Morbious gets back in the fray.




________________________________________________________________________________________
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
People do not exist for the Government, Government exists for the People
Yes...history is unchangeable,but it's taking place as each moment passes.
Action/Reaction
The path of least resistance is usually the vector pointing to the most probable future.
HOWEVER...there was a phrase..."The End of History"... that was bandied about after The Berlin Wall fell. At the time, it was seen by some as an event similar to your quantum leap into an unknown future. Others saw it as proof of an "unseen hand" that guides history...ie. "conspiracy theory".
Quote:Quote:
alemos says......My reluctance to discuss the past is predicated on the conditions we face today. It matters little to me how we got to this state of affairs, but rather how we get out of this state. I wasn’t there during that time period, it’s gone and done and nothing can be done about it.
Hmm2

http://www.quantumjumping.com/lp/subcons...7QodcS7Djw

Imagine an existence that creates every possible variation of life itself, in every sort of environment and those life forms fortunate enough to survive, prosper and propagate.

Gives a whole new meaning to natural selection. Darwin may have been way off. Organisms may not necessarily change to fit their environment, infinite variations of organisms may simply die off because of their environment.

Imagine a universe that creates every imaginable reality (or present and future), ours being only one of an infinite many.

Somewhere, in another reality, Jefferson won. The South won the war. States rights were upheld. And there was a perfect society.

Unfortunately, that is not the reality in which we currently live.

Keeping this thread alive until Morbious gets back in the fray.




________________________________________________________________________________________
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
People do not exist for the Government, Government exists for the People

thanks for that link-I signed up for the free lessons... we have a thread like that around here somewhere... After having a nonstop barrage of utter psychopathic bullshit laid on my doorstep for the past almost five years now... and having 'stepped aside of it' which is TOTALLY different than MOVING ON... I had an urge to listen to Olivia Newton John's song Magic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe3WxCm4 ... re=related
On Sunday... the same date sixteen years ago that I was doing some human magic that is so common we all take it for granted after the miracle of the moment passes... (if it does...)
( From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/o/olivia-ne ... yrics.html )

Magic -sung by Olivia Newton-John

Come take my hand
You should know me
I've always been in your mind
You know I will be kind
I'll be guiding you

Building your dream
Has to start now
There's no other road to take
You won't make a mistake
I'll be guiding you

You have to believe
We are magic
Nothing can stand in our way
You have to believe
We are magic
Don't let your aim ever stray
And if all your hopes survive
Destiny will arrive
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you

From where I stand
You are home free
The planets align so rare
There's promise in the air
And I'm guiding you

Through every turn
I'll be near you
I'll come any time you call
I'll catch you when you fall
I'll be guiding you

You have to believe
We are magic
Nothing can stand in our way
You have to believe
We are magic
Don't let your aim ever stray
And if all your hopes survive
Destiny will arrive
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you

You have to believe
We are magic
Nothing can stand in our way
You have to believe
We are magic
Don't let your aim ever stray
And if all your hopes survive
Destiny will arrive
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you

Wook, when he came here to help me last year-laid the path out for my keeping myself grounded... getting grounded at that stage of my process. We ARE magic... Richard Bach laid out the 'living out all of the decisions conceivable in our lives on multi level universes or dimensions in his book 'Bridge Across Forever' and that really had impact on me-how much time and emotions we waste with the 'woulda/coulda/shouldas'... I think we're doing a lot of that when it appears that we are sleeping. As we spend so much down time -hopefully horizontal... so have you signed up for the course alemos?

What 'we' don't know is of vast more material than what 'we' do know... And our realm is not one of exalting anyone who even thinks outside the boxes or cells or whatever in our imprisoned world...
Quote:What 'we' don't know is of vast more material than what 'we' do know... And our realm is not one of exalting anyone who even thinks outside the boxes or cells or whatever in our imprisoned world...

Yup Worship One who's "light" had an 'effect' on many "universes"

Quote:Humans deny a continuum of possibilities, an infinite number of realms into which their species may enter. - Erasmus, notes on human nature

Quote:Technology has a seductive nature. We assume that advances in this realm are always improvements, beneficial to humans. We are deluding ourselves. - Rayna Butler, True Visions

Quote:To accept new information and use it to modify our behavior – this we recognize as the human quality to think. And by thinking, to survive, not just as individuals, but as a species. In surviving, though, shall our humanity endure? Will we keep our hold on those things that make life sweet for the living, warm and filled with what we call beauty?
We shall not gain this enduring humanity if we deny our whole being – if we deny emotion, thought, or flesh. There we have the tripod upon which all of eternity balances. If we deny emotion, we lose all touch with our universe. By denying the realm of thought, we cannot reflect upon what we touch. And if we dare deny the flesh, we unwheel the vehicle which bears us all. - Krefter Brahn, Special Advisor to the Jihad

Bob... <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/reefer.gif" alt=":uni:" title="reefer" />
Morbius,

Where are you when we need you?

Don't know if anyone's posted this ditty, but this place seemed as good as any since many of the things in the article have been discussed here or in other threads.

So here goes:

It's a bit lengthy, but the data presented seems to be right on the money, pardon the pun.

http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pro/10...PSIM200/PR

This is some scary shit. I've noticed some references on the board about digging for gold because of the high cost it can bring.

My recommendation is that if you've got any gold or silver (as in real silver coins etc), don't sell it. HANG ON TO IT. It may be the only thing you can use for money later on.

Most people do not realize that our currency is backed by nothing.

We are currently in a world of shit and it just keeps getting worse ,not better.

It may be late in the game, but based upon some of these trend lines (in the article), I would strongly urge everyone to take whatever steps they can to become as self sufficient as is possible, as quickly as possible.

We, as a Nation, cannot keep doing what we are doing without extreme results down a very short road.
Morbius,

I've noticed you logging on but not posting. Cow

How about letting us know how you are. Hmm2
Smoke

Hiya! I'm ok, I even posted! Had a rough time from December till April 2nd having to be in Maryland but I'm back in columbia, sc now and getting life set back up.

One of the things that is hardest in life, for me at least, is leaving unpleasant experiences behind. In this case it took me 3 years to decide to and then another 1-1.5 years to actually finish doing it........

On the bright side my second divorce will be finished as soon as the estranged one refiles her response, she didn't sign the first time! doh!

Things are better and working towards good, how have you been?

Edit:

reading through that paper now.

It's correct this is a currency crisis made exponentially worse by the fact that it's a world reserve currency crisis, been sayin the same for about 4 years.

Believe this, before it's over there will be a serious disruption in our "just in time" delivery to retail stores for EVERYTHING.

That disruption will be caused by the mechanics of a system where the currency has been so debased that you don't dare fill a ship with goods and send it out because by the time it is unloaded in a couple weeks it's lost too much value.

It will last anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months, i can't imagine it going longer than that, the corporations will have to come up with something and they will in order to survive.

we the people will and can find other methods of doing business on a daily basis in our lives, we might start using silver for example.

That can happen very quickly on a local basis and the notion of using another country's currency is not at all odd, only in the USA is it not a normal practice, it could become one quickly.

Fear that disruption, make sure you have a several month supply of absolutely needed things, it isn't worth the risk.

The part I don't understand is this, essentially this is all caused by a few international mega banks, but it is going to collapse and fail. I can't figure out if they're too arrogant and greedy to see that the system that feeds them their largesse will fall or they're doing it on purpose. I can't fathom that last one, if they're doing it on purpose........just wow i can't imagine that.
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