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Message of cydonia mathematically discredited
#1
        Stuart Robbins, Ph.D., is an astronomer at Univ. Colorado, specializing in cratering. He runs a blog-and-podcast outfit called Exposing PseudoAstronomy. He's the same astronomer that Mike Bara ranted about for 29 pages in a foreword (he called it a forward, LOL) to his horrible book Ancient Aliens on Mars.

        Robbins has just produced a podcast plus a professional-grade video re-analyzing claims made 20 years ago about the mathematical message of Cydonia and the D&M pseudo-pyramid. The claims are emphatically rejected as lacking the claimed accuracy and having no less probability than the null hypothesis.
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#2
I watched Robbins video twice.

First of all Robbins "science" is clearly bias right from the beginning.

Notice he uses Mike Malin's old MOC composite of the D&M Pyramid and never mentions that it was created by Malin using a composite of three different images. Malin used three different images to "create" this flat and distorted view of the formation - which included a shot of the east and west sides of the D&M with a thin swath running down the middle.

Horsepoop

Malin's composite image of D&M: http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/09/15/

He never uses this image:

[Image: mars%20d&m.jpg]

Hmm2

All though Malin's composite image presents the D&M as an almost flat formation, Robbins contents that it has major points of elevation. Talk about "pseudoscience" - where is the data to support this?

Robbins then uses the Carlotto/Hoagland line drawing of the D&M and points out that Hoagland and Torun's measurements are inaccurate and not useful - because if you move the point of alignment - one way or the other - the measurements change. However he presents his measurements as true science...

Horsepoop 

In his display of "tolerance matches" he misleads the viewer by creating numerous variations on the shape of the D&M Pyramid - based on the Carlotto/Hoagland line drawing of the D&M and uses these drawings as his data base of random D&M like formations.

I think real science uses actual formations found on Mars in a random search - not computer models based on drawings, but I guess Robbins also believes in the Global Warming - created in weather models.

Scream

THE TOOL 
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#3
Dr Robbins is not a member here, but he asked me to post this response:
===========================

Hi Zip -

You state that you watched my movie twice, but I think you missed several things, considering that all of your critiques are based on things I neither said nor did.

First, I did not use Michael Malin's MOC composite image -- I did not use MOC data at all in the movie.  I clearly overlay references for each image set I use, and the high-resolution versions were all CTX images, rendered at 10 meters per pixel which is actually under-sampling them by about a factor of 2.  The "D&M Pyramid" image was entirely in a single CTX image strip.

In your second major issue, you state that I present my measurements as "true science."  That is not the case.  I said that when *I* did the measurements, that's what I got.  Then, the whole point in shifting the vertices a little bit was to show that the values you get vary by several degrees, meaning that neither I nor Richard's or any others' results can be accurate to an arbitrarily high precision of three significant figures, or even two significant figures.  I included my measurements for "completeness'" sake, because if I didn't, it would be a glaring omission.

This gets to your third point, that I "mislead the viewer by creating numerous variations on the shape of the D&M Pyramid - based on the Carlotto/Hoagland line drawing of the D&M Pyramid ... ."  I only use that when showing the above point to demonstrate the lack of ability to be precise on either my measurements or the original.  For the true Monte Carlo simulation with histograms building up, I used an ideal pentagon as the starting point -- not my measurements of the D&M nor Richard Hoagland's version.  But, you could use a perfect one, Richard's, or mine as the starting point to which to randomly distort and you will get similar results.

I think that I approached this fairly and showed that the null hypothesis - that you will get that many significant "hits" from any random pentagon - cannot be falsified.  That is the threshold in science for accepting a claim, when it reaches a level above the noise, above the background, beyond the null hypothesis.

I am open to critique.  But, it would be appreciated if your critique was on what I actually did, rather than based on not what I did.

- Stuart
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#4
Robbins before I get started, with your lincoln provided response - please provide a link to the "D&M Pyramid" image you used - that was "entirely in a single CTX image strip".

THE TOOL
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#5
SR responds:

there are many, but I in particular used G22_026771_2213_XI_41N009W, which can be *previewed* (as in, it has not been geographically corrected yet) here.

(about 40% the way up the image from the bottom)
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#6
So, Robbins didn't use Malin's flat and distorted MOC composite image of the D&M, but did use a squat and distorted CTX image that he admits "is not geographically corrected"

Note I had to go back and watch his video a third time to see his 8 second pop-up CTX reference for the D&M image, I guess I was distracted by all of his scribbling going around the distorted outline of the D&M.

Rofl

Is this the best you got?

It appears Robbins has spent a lot of time and effort in creating a 15 minute YouTube attack that goes back to some almost 40 year old claims made by Hoagland in early Viking images that, like his - under scrutiny - just don't hold up.

Horsepoop

THE TOOL
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#7
I am loath to intersperse my own opinion into this thread but with the recent release yesterday with 680 images from the MRO HiRise "Poeple's Camera" and had absolutely ZERO images from Cydonia in this release.

Also as a matter of FLAT FACT BRUTAL TRUTH THERE ARE NO 3D ANALGLYPHS OF ANY SINGLE "MONUMENT" or "SQUARE MILE" in CYDONIA !!!

If there's nothing to hide why are EVERY mission AVOIDING the ONLY QUANDRANT in ALL of Mars where the following is in the legend:

"ORIGIN:ENIGMATIC"

Every other quadrant has a regular geomorphic process as its origin.  If NASA/JPL are 'supposed' to study the unknown ...

WHY ARE THERE NO Digital Terrain Maps on ANY ... repeat ANY single spot in Cydonia. ??? Whistle

"It's a pile of rocks" acc to NASA/JPL ... really ???  Pennywise

What kind of rocks, how much composition, variances, how was the quadrant created ?  By a Joker Poker Lying God?

Bob ...  Ninja Reefer
"The Morning Light, No sensation to compare to this, suspended animation, state of bliss, I keep my eyes on the circling sky, tongue tied and twisted just and Earth Bound Martian I" Learning to Fly Pink Floyd [Video: https://vimeo.com/144891474]
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#8
Hmm2
Just Plain Lazy ?
Just Plain Lax ?
Just Plain Lincoln ?
Mellow
anyway
Levin Was still right
not NASA.
:SJ:
Never invite a Yoda to a frog leg dinner.
Go ahead invite Yoda to a Frog leg dinner
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#9
Lefty... Relay to bad psi Phone imposter to RCH radio there is a direct challenge awaiting him in this forum.

I have set the Standards using you as an example interpreter.

We see how he works and can utilise him as a resource.

He need not join and by all means you can be his mouthpiece here.
You are already cover for expat so why not further evolve.

bad psi is welcome to join but likely won't.
Therefore when I speak to him I will just use you lincoln.

Let's see who astronoms and who doesn't.


Linke,on the matter of Cydonia... bad psi will be educated.

improv eyes.
Along the vines of the Vineyard.
With a forked tongue the snake singsss...
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#10
Mr Robbins needs to learn a lesson I learned the hard way long ago-

non ortho rectified, non geometrically map projected means junk for any science, just a "pretty picture"

If he really wants to see the D+M he should perhaps get on HiRise adamantly to release the full res image of it which I've had officially targeted and requested for years now and not rely on damaged goods to make a conclusion about anything; that's what Uncle Hoagy does

Why did he not use one of the many Ody 20m res images of it that ARE corrected?

All I see is an attempt to refute something someone else once said that never held much water anyway, not any attempt to find out what may or may not be as pertains to the Martian question or reality. If these same ones would instead devote that amount of attention to discovery we might get somewhere. All we are left with here is a pseudo-skeptical hit piece on a pseudo-scientific hypothesis

Come correct to the HM review or get corrected


On a satellite I ride. Nothing down below can hide.
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#11
(06-08-2014, 11:07 AM)Keith link Wrote:non ortho rectified, non geometrically map projected means junk for any science, just a "pretty picture"

Keith, read it again please. He wrote that the preview image was not yet corrected. The image he used in the video was corrected.
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#12
This is called development progress process ... nice one
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#13
(06-03-2014, 07:05 PM)Zip Monster link Wrote:So, Robbins didn't use Malin's flat and distorted MOC composite image of the D&M, but did use a squat and distorted CTX image that he admits "is not geographically corrected"

Note I had to go back and watch his video a third time to see his 8 second pop-up CTX reference for the D&M image, I guess I was distracted by all of his scribbling going around the distorted outline of the D&M.

Rofl

Is this the best you got?

It appears Robbins has spent a lot of time and effort in creating a 15 minute YouTube attack that goes back to some almost 40 year old claims made by Hoagland in early Viking images that, like his - under scrutiny - just don't hold up.

Horsepoop

THE TOOL

Interesting thread 'till i tripped over and spilled my beloved coffee.  The 'Tools' more than  love of POT calling ur, well known forced image mirroring across martian landscapes, to fortify something something codex lol and so on,  Kettle BLACK!!  Blink Rofl
Seriously? After the Veterinarian goat fest surrounding ur pareidolic biased papers? Dude, check the glass house ur hurling those lofty stones from, has some kind of personal insurance. Attempting to distinguish urself from the event horizon of exploiting bad ideas, you so obviously inhabit with other misguided souls like  Mr Robbins, Hoagland, Basiago and god knows how many other self acclaimed 'Truthers,' is frankly hilarious. WOW! Have to restrain myself with your, self righteous indignation. As ever your lack of any kind of self awareness is breath taking. YEESH!

Keith, Excellent summation with a degree of reflection...  Dam rare in this field of study or interest.
Quote:Mr Robbins needs to learn a lesson I learned the hard way long ago-

non ortho rectified, non geometrically map projected means junk for any science, just a "pretty picture"

If he really wants to see the D+M he should perhaps get on HiRise adamantly to release the full res image of it which I've had officially targeted and requested for years now and not rely on damaged goods to make a conclusion about anything; that's what Uncle Hoagy does

Why did he not use one of the many Ody 20m res images of it that ARE corrected?

All I see is an attempt to refute something someone else once said that never held much water anyway, not any attempt to find out what may or may not be as pertains to the Martian question or reality. If these same ones would instead devote that amount of attention to discovery we might get somewhere. All we are left with here is a pseudo-skeptical hit piece on a pseudo-scientific hypothesis

Come correct to the HM review or get corrected

Lincoln, a lot of man hours have been burnt and The blind have been witnessed, leading the blind.  Read Keiths post closely. I think its a key insight into whats been going on.

Cheers


.....“from one thing, know ten thousand things”
Miyamoto Musashi,

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#14
(06-09-2014, 08:26 AM)watcher link Wrote:Read Keiths post closely. I think its a key insight into whats been going on.

I did. I note he wants Dr Robbins to use a 20 m/px image instead of the 7.5 m/px corrected image he actually did use. I don't think Robbins will want to do that, but I can ask.
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#15
don't get full o yerself smug monkey
Let me reiterate and expand, because you read but not between the lines and obviously don't know much on the history of these things...

There is NO as in NOT ONE- CTX image of the D&M with an emission or slant angles good enough to be made into an accurate nadir view, which is what you need for what he's trying. You can turn a semi oblique image into one that looks nadir, but you've screwed the pythagorean pooch in doing so. All you get from correcting these are correct to spec images, and the specs say they were taken at angle
You See- Malin's got a bad attitude about letting us see what's really there
Mikey might like LIFE but he DON"T like Cydonaut Blockines Snack Crackers- so anything from his hand taken of the area is skewn.


Image ID                                       C. Lat      C. Lon      Solar Lon      Orbit# Description     N Azimuth Data Quality
B01_010143_2216_XN_41N009W 41.68 9.23  132.06    10143 Ride-along with HiRISE 278.18 OK
D01_027417_2195_XN_39N009W 39.55 9.39  118.79 27417 Ride-along with HiRISE 278.72 OK
G02_019057_2195_XI_39N009W 39.55 9.46         135.77 19057 Landforms in Cydonia 276.33 OK
G19_025505_2214_XI_41N009W 41.42 9.72      52.64 25505 Landforms in Cydonia 277.22 OK
G22_026771_2213_XI_41N009W 41.4 9.75      95.92 26771 Landforms in Cydonia 275.62 OK
P03_002100_2223_XN_42N010W 42.36 10.26   162.62   2100 Cydonia Labyrinthus 276.8 OK
P06_003234_2212_XN_41N009W 41.24 9.48           213.41   3234 Cydonia region                 276.8 OK
P15_006992_2194_XN_39N009W 39.41 9.59             21.56   6992 Cydonia Colles                 276.81 OK
P19_008429_2226_XN_42N009W 42.6  9.58             71.62   8429  Ride-along with HiRISE      277.23    OK
P22_009642_2216_XN_41N009W 41.77 9.26           113.64   9642  Ride-along with HiRISE 276.72 OK
T01_000807_2205_XN_40N010W 40.53    10.11           112.98     807 Cydonia Mensae landforms 276.66 OK

here are the images, look it up yourself

There are such Ody images, and if they'd release the full res ones I've ordered there'd be HiRise. On another note, do we really think a higher resolution image would be better for assuming lines on ruinous ancient archaeological structures?  I know some pyramids in Egypt that can be recognized as such in low res but in high they look like piles of dirt. Your point?

here's mine-

It's horse mularky to have drawn lines on such an old and eroded structure and say it means anything other than "hey, it's some strange sort of pyramidal thingee" - that goes for Hoagland\Carlotto and now Robbins as well.

Regardless of who draws a what on the thing or applies which sort of maths to it in drawing whatever half-assed conclusions in this ridiculous pissing contest, the facts remain

There IS a Face here,
There IS this gigantic Pyramid (and others)
There ARE certain effigies as well.

Were all these things scattered about on Mars they'd be curious-
but they're not, they're all here together
The entire place IS anomalous and were it on earth it had been dug into long ago.

Draw and line and do some calculus on that buddy.
On a satellite I ride. Nothing down below can hide.
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#16
boom. i forgot to say so long ago.
On a satellite I ride. Nothing down below can hide.
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#17
I approach it in careful steps that is NOT math.

I am open to all debate and always was.


I myself never drew the line.


But it is where I draw the line.



I was demonstrating this alignment with the Bamf Release 
http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/I01723003
when The untainted image was released and Eye quote: booom.
http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/I01024002


It is the pixel column of every image ever made of Mars by "Themis" @ 100 meters per pixel in the original image of Cydonia that was captured before and after the July 23rd 'bamf' image.

In the images corrected not by myself all I did was just draw a red-line down the column of #195 out of 320 possible scanlines.

It is nadir pointing so dead center would be between pixel#160/#161 offset from #195 by 35 pixels in the Themis Daytime IR images.

The funny thing is is that Themis was designed for a Sun-Sychronous orbit.

In the Square Complex center this Pixel Column follows itz way up to the apex of the D&M and Touches on The face at crown.

Transecting this syzygy of Three Anomalies is what it is and cannot be changed.

That is why I use it as a Standard.

#195 It is what is is.



In case anyone hasn't noticed.

The Craft itself "Delineated" the benchmark.

The orbit has changed a few times since way back when...
Recall:

drawing a red-line Ross/Lynn was merely for markup for other tektons,but Mars Odessey / Themis scrivened it.
Along the vines of the Vineyard.
With a forked tongue the snake singsss...
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#18
First opening:

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/I01024002
[Image: 21097902388_e7cb2696d3_k.jpg]

Anyone can re-create the cydo-axis.

There is Zero mystery to it.

Who in this forum is capable of drawing a simple red line in a paint program?

I have NEVER seen the cydo-axis replicated by anyone.

To demonstrate I need a volunteer to open this: Hi  XYZ
 http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/I01024002   locate the pixel coordinate 0,195

and draw straight in a descending order to the bottom of the image 3600,195

Thatz it Thatz all.
Along the vines of the Vineyard.
With a forked tongue the snake singsss...
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#19
Tace:  tracing board.
I never fear the gauntlet of peer review.

It purifies the standard model I use.

I am a mover and I don't move the goalpost.

The cydo-axis is  Sun-synchronously and orbitally scrivened into the surface of Mars.

By themis itself.
Along the vines of the Vineyard.
With a forked tongue the snake singsss...
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#20
...

well I missed this one in 2014.
Stu and Stufu ... Reefer ... I think they are both gay.  
The two of them have been humping each other with mutual adoration and slobber for years it appears.

The video employs outdated material,
and is essentially a clowns attempt at pseudoscience propaganda for Robbins.

Maybe the two of them need to be renamed ... Lame and Feeble ... 
be sure to watch Stu's next podcast ... 

[Image: mickyrat.jpg]


..........
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#21
Quote:

Maybe the two of them need to be renamed ... Lame and Feeble ...  LilD


[Image: 21147690050_43a1120251_o.jpg]

They had a handle on it.

[Image: 21149589029_a81b7e5895_o.jpg]

Chiral Viral in the Conspiral Spy-Role Spiral.
Along the vines of the Vineyard.
With a forked tongue the snake singsss...
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#22
give Diss-Credit all you want stu-stu

[Image: 22239658353_5d64c70353_o.jpg]

Although by no means assumed perfectly accurate...google mars is not my issue.
Airy O says so.

The forum says:
Show 'em if you got 'em. 



Google Earth's Word , Not Mine.  eh? Bamf?
Along the vines of the Vineyard.
With a forked tongue the snake singsss...
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